Relationship Advice to Keep Your Bond Strong | Dr. Mike Ghali

In this insightful episode of the Mentally Strong Podcast, Dr. B engages in a heartfelt conversation with Dr. Mike Ghali, a licensed psychologist specializing in individual, couples, and marriage counseling. Dr. Ghali opens up about his personal and professional experiences navigating grief, loss, and the challenges of maintaining mental strength.

Topic Highlights:

• Embracing Emotions, Building Resilience: Learn to accept and express your feelings, fostering emotional resilience in the face of life's challenges.
• Taking Ownership of Your Mental Well-being: Discover the power of personal responsibility in your mental health journey, moving beyond reliance on external validation.
• Communication: The Key to Strong Relationships: Gain valuable insights into effective communication within relationships, fostering understanding and connection even during difficult times.
• Navigating Grief and Loss: Hear Dr. Ghali's personal story of grief and how it shaped his therapeutic approach. Uncover strategies for coping with loss and finding moments of joy amidst sorrow.
• Discovering Your Passions, Fueling Your Soul: Explore the importance of identifying and prioritizing activities that bring you joy and contribute to your overall well-being.

Don't miss this powerful episode filled with expert advice and practical strategies for embracing life's journey and cultivating mental strength.

Guest: Dr. Mike Ghali, Licensed Psychologist and Owner of Ink Therapy

Contact Dr. Ghali:

• Website: https://www.inctherapy.org
• Phone: 719-500-1831

Remember: It's okay to not be okay. Reach out for help when you need it, and take the first step on your journey towards mental strength and emotional well-being.

Transcript

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a lot of times in relationships I think people are more active in trying to make the other person feel better or stop feeling bad and when somebody's in pain and somebody else is trying to do that that is it can be terribly invalidating and it can create distance so one of the things that I work on with lots and lots of couples is tolerance of your partner's emotions nobody wakes up in the morning and go I hope I feel really sad today and that be good or I hope I feel really frustrated with my partner today whatever the case this is the Mentally Strong podcast and I am your host Doctor B Mentally Strong I'm so excited to interview Doctor Mike today and on embracing the journey you specialize in individual and couples and marriage counseling so a lot of relationship stuff probably but also executives and professionals that's right who don't necessarily have a diagnosis but need somebody to kind of help them on this mental health journey brace the journey we're all on it whether we admit it or not so tell us a little bit about yourself start professionally like your credentials and things like that sure so Doctor Mike Golly and I'm the owner of Ink Therapy I work with individual and couples primarily adults no kids actually when I started my career I thought I was gonna work with children and families and I started doing some of that work on internships and practical and I kind of went I stink at this and and I well thank you for doing that self reflection and not saying you can do everything and you know I think it was because I developed um a pretty strong cognitive approach and like to really think intellectually and try and meet people at that intellectual level and and that didn't work very well with kids I didn't know how to adjust to make it work well with kids is a better way to say it I'm a licensed psychologist and when I went to college I thought I was gonna be a sportscaster I went to university of Missouri cause I have a very good journalism school and then I realized about three weeks in that that I kind of despise the media I don't know that they do a lot to really help society I had a inborn love of communication um and so that's that's why and sports okay and so that's why I went that way yeah I kind of I'd watch a game and naturally just do it play by play as I was watching but I realized that I wanted to help people and I didn't think that that was gonna be the way to do it I remember calling my mom and she said let me get this straight you move 600 miles away to not study journalism if you want to look at it that way I guess that's probably true and so then I took a psychology course at some point and I went I think this is it this is the way that I can fulfill my love of communication and actually help people and then that eventually LED to my first stint in Colorado I got a master's degree at C up in Greeley okay um and then my wife and I were thinking about starting a family most of our families more towards the East Coast so we ended up in Gainesville it was a ridiculous idea that we were gonna move to Gainesville and then I was going to apply and get into a doctorate program terrible plan but it worked out okay um not an easy school to get into not an easy school to get into yeah and I knew at that point that I wanted to do clinical work uh huh U F is a research one institution and it and I was very honest I have no intention of pursuing a research career almost kept me out of the program I was an alternate and but I told them I will work as hard at the research as I do it the rest of it I'm really thankful that I went to that school and then I worked at university but at first and then FGCU you're probably from well maybe not you went you were at F I U I saw yeah yeah yeah um it's in Fort Myers oh oh yes yes um yep yep okay the joke is it's Florida golf course course university they do have a PGA program so it's not yeah and so I was there for about 12 years the last four I was the clinical director there and so wide range of presenting issues and histories and backgrounds and cultures somewhere in that time frame I can tell you exactly it was about 2,012 I joined a group practice and really got to engage much more in couples work which is what I really wanted to do you and far between at a university that there's couples coming and so in 2020 already a weird year the end of that year my father passed away and um ever since we had left Colorado my wife and I really missed it and you know things like that tend to change your perspective on the world we said what are we waiting for um so we moved to Colorado Springs for the first about six months I was working uh at a local uh practice doing evaluations psychological evaluations which I had the skill set for um but it wasn't what really got me going I would have clients who at the end of the evaluation I'd go through recommendations if one of those recommendations was counseling um many many times they say can I work with you and I'd have to go no sorry and so um it's a difficult decision to walk away from that course I had to get my wife on board but I opened my private practice um in 2022 early in 2022 so little over 2 years old let's dive into the grief a little bit yeah um turning point for you I think grief is a turning point you mentioned for a lot of people absolutely um as a professional you have all this education of all this experience and then it happens to you yeah um how do you think you approached it differently and what kinds of things were you more aware of than maybe someone who didn't have the education experience you know I don't know that it would make me more aware um other than the fact of the importance of talking about how I was feeling um you know I maybe we'll get into that later about how society doesn't teach us very well to do especially men especially men especially men right so I knew about that but um my my only other physical loss or human loss if you want to put it that way was my grandfather when I was 8 years old and um certainly not well equipped to navigate that at that time but I knew I would need to talk about how I felt and there was a moment my dad had a stroke pretty much wiped out the entire left side of his brain and we were going to go visit for the last time and we knew it was the last time the next day and we were sitting around the dinner table um my wife and three kids and she said you know what do you need what will you need from us tomorrow I went I have no idea and I thought about it for a minute and I said you know I think I just might need some hugs and um during that day during that visit my son my oldest son who was probably uh three years ago he was 16 at the time he must have came up five times and just gave me a hug during that time yeah no words just came up and gave me a hug and I think my not it didn't have anything to do with my professional training had more to do with my experience of working with people I knew that I needed to absorb that but I think some of it does because I think most people would say nothing I don't I don't nothing or I don't know what I need right and it leaves people wanting to help and not being able to help yeah but your ability to you know what I actually don't know but I some connection yeah would be good right um so I think subconsciously you were able to communicate something that a lot of people aren't able to communicate yeah that yeah that's I think that's fair and yeah and I think you know when people are hurting um a lot of times what they really need is comfort and you know I think about I work with a lot of people and they and they don't know they can't verbalize what's comforting to them right and so I'll I'll say well think about when you were a kid and when you fell and hurt what did you seek out right of course a lot of times it's mom or it's a hug or it's ice cream or you know but it gives us an idea with this football player jumped in the stands and no his mother was hugging him gosh I don't know the name of the football player but it's all over the news right now it's a college player last game they lost and he jumped up into the stands and his mom was there and he thought he was just going to give his mom like a hug and then as soon as his mom gave him that hug he began to cry and so it's like all over the news and um instead of being embarrassed by it he's like standing up and like it's okay for men to cry it's okay yeah to you know get a hug from your mom yeah you lose a game yeah and it was bigger than just losing a game it was like probably his last game because he's not you know probably going to make the NFL you know that kind of thing yeah sure so um yeah I thought it was very moving and kind of what we talked about of men masculine yeah energy men yeah feel like that emotions is more of a feminine quality and how do you maintain masculinity and still be able to express emotions and I think even beyond that yeah certainly I think men get that message more strongly yeah more overtly um but I think all human beings get that message from society as we go yeah um it's so interesting to me as a therapist when people are in my office and they start to cry what's the first thing that they say to me sorry I'm sorry uh huh everybody knows everybody knows the answer to that yeah and I'm going you know look I got Kleenex I'm I'm trained I'm glad I can hit and and yet that is always the response and and we get those messages in such subtle ways right you know if I start crying somebody's oh it's okay don't cry which sounds very sweet but really it's giving me the message like that makes me uncomfortable put that away and so um a lot of clients are a little bit taken aback when I say you know it's okay or I'm more interested in what are those tears expressing not whether they're coming out or not not whether you are emotional or not but what is coming up and what is coming out um and I think that's such a huge part of maintaining mental strength or rebuilding yeah mental strength um and embracing the journey of we are human beings right one thing every human being has done is cry yeah and yet we get that message that we ought not to do that and people apologize for it and grief is a common I mean everyone is going to experience grief some more intensely and what seems out of order as far as you know losing a child or a spouse or can we go back to how did you feel when this was going on with your father both when you knew it was about to happen and then the three months to year after yeah it was initially a bit shocking I mean I think that you know he was he was 86 so it's not out of order in that sense but he had been relatively healthy and I think a lot of people don't necessarily think about that right it's we have some awareness that life is not permanent on this planet um but I don't know that we think about when that time is gonna come right until something happens and so he had that stroke and it it really was shocking um and you know I think that there was some hope for a while okay he's gonna recover there you know they he stabilized they um but we had to go to the hospital and um make a decision because he was on life sustaining support and and that was a very difficult decision which is a different type of grief yeah now that it's there's a little bit of um responsibility on absolutely that pressure yeah how do you make that decision that that is not my role is to decide when somebody's life ends right um but we were talking to the the neurologist and I said what does the recovery look like here what what's you know best case scenario and when she told us that the best case scenario included him needing help going to the bathroom for the rest of his life that you know I knew that he didn't want that most people don't want that but I knew he did not want that and so that made that decision crystal clear and and he would have to learn to speak again and there there was so much to it so that was the end of hope but it sent us down a different path and um hospice came into the home um and then it was really about feeling an urgency to say what I needed to say and and and at that point I knew that that was for me because I knew he couldn't understand what was being said in this on this earth on this earth maybe his soul and maybe his spirit could absorb that and and I had to trust in that but I also knew that I needed to say some things to say goodbye for me and then so that that was that last day that we were there and um and that was that was hard you know it's um they say about therapy that it's a unique situation because you can you can be intentional and plan out how you say goodbye and you know in in this sense I got that same opportunity and so the weeks and months after were complicated by the fact that I was the executor of his estate and and you know that's a story for another time haha um but but often times in grief there's some stressors you know I was speaking to a patient recently who she lost her husband and it was not just about the grief like she was about to lose the house yeah like he was the financial person like there was so many other loses that she was experiencing that were urgent that she couldn't actually take the time to feel the emotional pain of losing her well and I think sometimes it's a mixed blessing yeah right it it it distracts us in both positive and negative ways it gives us sometimes a sense that we're doing something to move to move um and not just sitting in that place of grief and at the at the same time it it distracts us from being able to feel that and of course a lot of people don't necessarily want to feel that or don't realize the value in feeling their feelings yeah you got to feel to heal which is not a cultural thing we don't think about that we we think of healing as fix like just fix it right yeah but you have to feel that pain in order for it to decrease in intensities absolutely yeah and and often times finding ways to express that pain right to to get it out in some way words art um those are the two main ways that come to my mind but um and do you use personally use art what do you do so I play music okay um just a form of art it's also a vibration that causes movement yes um I think music touches the soul for a lot of people and that's that's the case for me and so um whether it's writing music myself or listening to music that matches or that helps me express when I have a hard time finding the words myself at what point in your life did you realize that that was your what filled your cup early probably okay I've um cause I think that that's a lot of people where they have problems and in moving long in their journey as they they haven't found what fills their cup yeah um somebody will say oh do this and it doesn't work for them right you know like my the example I love to give is people are like oh just you know learn to run running is this great therapy so for people that that works for it is running is a a great release for me I hate running yeah and so was not therapeutic for me at all yeah yeah so finding you know what what fills your cup yeah um is super important and so I think you know I like to talk to men about that because I think women are more urgently trying to find it cause they the the motions are on the surface and they're trying to manage them mmm hmm but men feel like they're managing them by ignoring them or stuffing them down yeah so what are some other um you know tips that you give people as they're trying to find what fills their cup you know I think um I use the language what makes you feel alive right which isn't always the same as filling your cup but it's a good direction to get you started um because it helps you get in touch with I think both the positive and negative you know the the thrill of victory in the agony of defeat um yeah you know it it helps cover that range and I knew pretty early on that music was a thing for me I love to sing it's one of the times I feel most alive in my life and so it it's was sort of a natural thing for me to to turn to I think people who don't have that natural thing or haven't identified that thing for them yet which is probably complicated by the messages society gives us about emotion right um it can be frustrating to to search and you know journaling is a thing that therapists recommend a lot and some people love it some I was watching the Olympics and some of the gymnast would journal as a way of helping them prepare and giving themselves positive messages some people it just doesn't do much for it feels inauthentic it feels contrived and and so it doesn't feel that but I think you gotta try a few things yeah I think also you have to know what's what are we going for here right music journaling it's not to take the feelings away it's almost feel them top ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha you gotta feel the heel um yeah and you see I see this in sports a lot when someone does find a sport that helps them and then they get an injury and then they they don't have a Plan B and things mentally I mean you've seen this with some professional boxers and things like this when when they're unable to do what they're good at um you know or even a runner who then breaks their ankle and can't run for you know three to six months yeah um what happens to that mental health so having kind of multiple um avenues that that release that you know in those situations not only is it a grief they're losing something that they love hmm um it's an identity issue for for some people I am a right I am a runner I whatever this is and then they lose that and they're like I don't know what else I am yeah that happened with my husband I think a lot um he we moved here in 2,013 to try to save our children with cannabis okay it's not legal in Florida at the time yeah and he was working teaching and coaching football and even though there were signs of the neurological condition going on football is just that he was a football coach he played football in college he was a football coach like that was his identity and moving here he was unable to get a job because the disability was a little it was obvious and yeah I think there was some discrimination there and um he went to the neurologist to try to get a letter saying you know you can work and that this is and the neurologist said you need to retire um so based on his brain scans and and things like that and so I mean it was almost a 10 year process but you know there was definitely you know an identity thing about he'd always been an athlete and now he then it was in a wheelchair and kind of progressing like that and he knew he did not want to be taking care of as far as you know going to the bathroom and things like that so as it got closer to that you know things progress faster and yeah but yeah losing that identity um it's hard it is and so that's what I was saying like everybody experiences grief one of my favorite you know like a review from someone because a lot of times people think gosh her grief is so big I don't even either wanna watch that or um I can't learn anything from it or I feel guilty for for having grief right okay um but this one person talked about like her grief she didn't lose her children but her children her adult children were making decisions that we're not in line with how she was hoping yeah you know yeah they would be right and um yeah that is grief you know it's a loss of an image or a dream or yeah an expectation so you know even mothers of disabled children or just yeah there's so many things that we grieve in life absolutely you know so yeah any other tips on grief and how that impacts relationships cause I know you do a lot of relationship counseling yeah so um one of the ways it impacts relationships is as hard as it is for me as an individual to um allow myself to feel my feelings to allow that to be okay to not rush to try and get rid of them in in general terms it's even harder for me to see somebody I love feeling hurt feeling pain and allowing them to have that and and not wanna take that away from them or get upset that you know this is going on too long or you know now your mood or your your emotional states impacting me or just just the the simple fact of seeing somebody else in pain and so a lot of times in relationships I think people are more active in trying to make the other person feel better or stop feeling bad yeah you wanna take away the pain fix it every yeah uh huh fix it um and when somebody's in pain and somebody else is trying to do that that is it can be terribly invalidating and it can create distance uh huh and um so one of the things that I work on with lots and lots of couples is tolerance of your partner's emotions um nobody wakes up in the morning and go oh I I hope I feel really sad today and that be good or I hope I feel really frustrated with my partner today whatever the case is yeah yeah yeah um and I think with grief there's a little bit more tolerance around that at the outset right right we expect somebody to feel sad when there's loss um but when that doesn't resolve on some time frame that other people think is appropriate yep then it becomes problematic and that can lead to you know distance it can lead to resentment it can lead to one of the biggest downfalls of marriages is the loss of friendship and when one person is going through a significant emotional journey that the other person cannot will not tolerate except or understand it creates that gap yeah and so that's probably one of the main things that I that I teach or work on with the couples that I work with yes how do we No. 1 identify label express how we feel and express what we need and express what we need what you were able to say yeah you know I just need some hugs yeah and the other thing and we talked about this little bit off line before of this like taking responsibility for your own journey yeah you know your mental health and your mental strength yeah and I think in relationship we want the other person to rescue us we want and I'm guilty of this too you know like my you know like why why aren't you helping me you know you are my person you're supposed to be helping me and um so I think there's some of that wanting to be rescued from our pain yeah um and in grief we have to feel this pain and only we can feel it like um people reach out to me who have lost a child and they're like you know what do I do tell me what to do and it's like I can help guide you right but you have to feel the pain no one else can do that absolutely you um and and sometimes that is taking time uh alone to do that yeah and um and knowing that you know especially in intense grief it is going to likely be a lifetime yeah of you know but intermittently finding that joy and yeah and things like that so talk to me a little bit about your approach on that personal responsibility in their journey yeah so um it it becomes very nuanced with you know when you have um a romantic relationship that's you know that started as a friendship and turn into romantic relationship and then turned into a roommate situation and and a you know parenting partnership and a financial partnership and all of those layers that that become a part of our marriages or relationships um because we do tend to walk that journey in so many ways with another person and you know I think when we are looking to somebody else to help us feel better to rescue us um really what we're wanting is for somebody to just bear witness to our pain so validate it validate it validate it like you were talking so that we can have that space so that we don't have to defend the pain that we're feeling um quick story if you don't mind yes absolutely love stories um so this was years ago and I was driving home from work and um I called my wife and she's crying and I said what's wrong and she said that she was making dinner for the kids and dropped the bowl of pasta and and I knew that she had been having a bad day so that was sort of the straw that broke the animals back but I said I'll be home in 10 minutes and so I got home and I walk in the door and the kids are walking around in a days they don't know what and you know I walk in the kitchen and it must have been a terrific explosion cause there was bowl and pasta and sauce everywhere as you know where's my wife and I walk around and I see her sitting on floor leaning back against the cabinets crying and there may have been a day or time there may still be I'm not I'm not perfect by any means that I might have been bothered by that you know oh I work hard all day and this is what I come home to or or I would have tried to convince not a big deal with you know but on this day I got it and I I went over and I knelt down beside her and I just sat there for a minute and at some point I put my hand on her knee and I said it's gonna be okay couple minutes later I said um I'm gonna go clean this up and finish making dinner for the kids I got up walked away she eventually went in the other room came back in about 10 minutes and said thank you that's exactly what I needed and at the time I went what I do I didn't do anything all I did was bear witness to her pain and allow that to be okay in that moment so that she could move through it and so you know I think that learning what to ask of our partner can be as simple as that is just be with me yeah in that time you know um what's comforting a touch words it's gonna be okay yeah and then I can take that space and I think that's where the personal responsibility comes in is I can allow myself to take that space I know that my community that my village that my people and hold down the forward or you know maintain what needs to be maintained so I can take that space by have to be willing to do that and allow myself to feel to heal yeah and so and being aware of what triggers you you know can tell you the biggest fights in my marriage after losing children was like I'm depressed and you're not fixing it for me right but really because I work I'm working on myself I'm doing the work I'm on that journey I'm able to see I'm really actually jealous that you don't wake up depressed every day and I think and I you know I say you're not grieving of course he's grieving right um but he wasn't predisposed to actual depression right and so he wasn't experiencing it the same but I had enough insight to like I'm just jealous and I you know he's actually dealing with the same neurodegenerative condition you know um so yeah so having that insight of how you're contributing to the fights or the times that it doesn't go well and and those kinds of things I think is is super important and I love how you focus on not just communication but how that those words those actions are impacting your partner right I love that you know and and helping them recognize that language matters you know I think the example that you just gave is an interesting one um because you didn't actually want him to wake up depressed every day right um but you were most likely just seeking some yeah some camaraderie some some shared experience with that and not feeling alone right in that um but a lot of times when people express how they feel they don't actually express how they feel they express a thought and more often than not especially you know when we're talking about couples that thought is an interpretation of the other person's behavior so for example and I listen and when I hear people say I feel like as soon as I hear like I'm aware you're about to tell me a thought not a feeling an example might be if I say I feel like you don't like me that's not a feeling right that's an interpretation of your behavior and a predictable response from you is to tell me why that's not true right right now we're arguing haha um if I say I feel unlike when I'm around you um hopefully the reaction would be sort of more of a leaning in and going oh tell me about that why you know and so not only is it really you know it's actually an internal core belief that I'm not lovable and that you don't love me anymore and you know like if you keep going deep yeah all those roots absolutely that that go everybody has them they go pretty deep and yeah and create the lens through which we hear all of that yeah um but teaching people how to how to talk about their feelings right society teaches us not to express those things and so we got to do a little work around that and learn or relearn how to do that effectively yeah and by the way I do not feel unlike that was just so anything else you'd like to share um um especially to you know I think a lot of my followers are women I have about 20% men um and I think especially women have a hard time communicating to their spouse their needs yeah because they feel like their needs are sometimes feel like their needs aren't being met um or if they think their husband needs to kind of embrace this journey a little bit um how could a spouse gently appropriately cause it doesn't come out appropriately like oh you need to see a counselor something wrong with you right like that's how it it ends up coming out in fights but what would be a good way for people to be able to to have that conversation without it being an attack um a lot of times what I'll tell people is to to really focus on how they feel rather than what you're doing or not doing um focus on how you're feeling and and what you want to feel or or what you need from your partner um because again I think you're right it the level of frustration when we feel invalidated over and over and over is hard to um direct in gentle positive encouraging ways and comes out as attacks you know there has to be a willingness I tell a lot of couples that I think if there's two things present willingness and capability you can be successful in this therapy work I also think it's about really identifying you know what what do we see as the rolls in relation to each other and recognizing where the personal responsibility comes in and are we you know putting undo expectations on the other person and communicating about those roles I talk with couples about what I call meta communication communicating about communication hahaha right we might have an argument and we can come back later when you know the the intensity is died down and we're a little more level headed and go you know what went wrong in our discussion and and so adjusting as we go in that sense by talking about the interactions that we've had that went well the ones that didn't but I think if we need to encourage our spouse to support us in different ways I sometimes will talk to people about a feedback sandwich how do you give difficult feedback to somebody um and so you start with pretty easily digestible peace right I love you I really value our relationship and that's why I wanted to talk with you about this right then you put the the difficult part in a lot of times I feel unsupported or unheard or um dismissed when I try and share with you what's going on with me and then the easily digestible piece to to finish it and and I I would really our relationship would benefit you know I will respect you even more than I do now if we can work together on right something along those lines because it is hard to encourage somebody to interact differently with you to meet your needs without them feeling attacked or blamed or yeah and I always say you've gotta be on that journey you gotta look look inward first yeah you know uh but you know let's make some progress on your own journey before you start saying what's wrong with your partner and how they sure you know need to to change or improve yeah so what I saw quote on your wall downstairs something like um in order to love yourself you have to know yourself or is that yeah am I quoting that accurate well yeah and you gotta know yourself like yourself to love yourself we always talk about self love and it's these things and it's like I I realized as I you know I'd lost my children and I was approaching 50 I was like I don't even know what fills my cup I don't even know that piece about me and I had to go on this little journey way too late right he's like you know I should have figured that out in in my 20s but I was you know I'm a caregiver so I do like caring for people yeah that is one of the things that fills my cup and I can do that professionally and so you know having kids having a big family taking care of my husband right like so I was filling my cup along the way just I wasn't able to communicate it I didn't know what some of those things were I think that's a piece that for a lot of women or anybody who has that caretaking tendency or was taught to be a caretaker can be hard about grief or motion in general is that there's sort of a belief that I have to make sure everybody else is okay yep and that can interfere and so um really really challenging that in times of need like hey it's okay for me to need something sometimes right yeah and I see this a lot with mothers who you know have have lost a child and have living children and they are struggling so much because they feel like they should be grateful and caretaking for their living children should be enough and um but haven't taken the time to feel that pain and so just keep stuffing it down stuffing it down I think it's another piece of the emotional challenge we have in our society is that a lot of times we expect other people to feel one way or the other right oh yeah and live in a bipolar world for sure exactly right yeah as though you cannot be grateful that you have these children who are living and thriving and and be sad and grieving that you lost a child right absolutely well thank you very much this is very good conversation we will have your contact information your website in the description of the YouTube channel but just tell people how how to contact you and sure what kind of happens in that first um yep call and visit absolutely so people can visit the website it's I n c therapy.org if you're interested in scheduling a consultation I do offer free telephone consultations so we can talk about what the needs are and you can get a sense of whether we'd be a good fit to work together therapeutically uh you can schedule that consultation right through the website um you can always email me at info at I n c therapy dot org or call me directly at 7 1 9 5 0 0 1 8 3 1 I'm quite accessible and I'm quite responsive to communication so I'll get back to you rather quickly so thank you for the opportunity to chat today I enjoyed it quite a bit good